Zombies and the Fat Kid :: View topic

Posted: Fri Oct 09, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: Parry vs Dodge vs Block

So after defense, what should my paladin stack?

I know that Block seems to be the easiest for me to accomulate. Some of my talents (Holy Shield) raises my block value over 50% when active (which is most of the time). This would have me soaking the damage with block and to keep my armor value high (which I try to do). This is on most of my gear.

Dodge seems to be fantastic. I see the DK's and Druid's dodging some mad attacks. It also seems to help on the fights where the tanks have to switch, as I can hold the boss longer (like in TOC). This should be less work on the healers, except when I get hit I'll take more damage than normal.

Parry seems pretty good to as (if I understand it right) when I parry my atack speed is temporarily raised. This gear seems harder to get.

So I've always been looking for block and stacking it and then looking for dodge 2nd, parry 3rd. Do I need to revisit my gear and see what is the priority? (some gear has block and other has dodge/parry) I look forward to the responses.

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 10:22 am Post subject:

Tried to read Elitist jerks, but my head elsplode...

So it seems that Block and Def are a paladins friend. Even after 540, Def seems to be important.

So taking in my first post and this post what does this 102.4% thing and unhittable mean?

Do I add my block, dodge and parry only (+30 block due to holy shield)

So I should be stacking str since it goes to block?

Also, my meta socket is [Austere Earthsiege Diamond] Should I switch to[Eternal Earthsiege Diamond]? I could regem a few of my def gem to +hit or Str/Stam.

Officer Level 80 Paladin

Each tanking class is a little different, so feel free to jump in and correct me if I'm wrong (*cough Brian and Brad).

540 according to Dave is the soft cap for Defense. I think he said that 560 was the hard cap, but it's different for DKs at least. At 540 defense, you start getting less benefit from stacking defense than you would from other stats like block, dodge, and parry. You still get some bonuses from it as it will help to increase your damage reduction, but the more you stack the less of a benefit it is for you.

Unhittable is something that will never happen. You can get a high percentage of dodge and parry, but you will eventually get hit. What they are probably referencing is uncritable. That happens at 540 defense.

Block values for paladins are especially important as it is factored into many things such as damage reduction, converted into attack power in some cases as many of your prot spells are based off of it and essentially help you build threat. The same is true for strength to some degree as it also factors into our threat generation and a percentage is added to your prot abilities.

As for deciding which stat is better, you have to identify which kind of tank you want to be and what you want to accomplish. Avoidance tanks do a fine job of reducing the chances to get hit as much as possible, but once they do they typically take a lot of damage due to the lack of reduction stats or stam. They typically stack dodge and parry over stam, but causes their damage to be based on a random number generator. Basically they roll a twenty sided dice, and if it lands on 1-3 they take a hit. There's a small chance it will happen, but it can also happen back to back. Stamina tanks will stack stamina over everything else once they reach the defense cap. It doesn't make them a better tank, just gives them extra life to buffer while they get healed before the next hit. The last kind is just a mixture of both.

Your gear and talents will define mostly what your specific needs are. If you're low on defense and feel that the defense gem is a better fit for you, go for it. If you're over defense cap, and feel the armor stam is better, go for that. Warriors and DKs factor in their armor as part of their attack power, so they double dip there in threat generation and damage reduction. I'm not sure about paladins though. You'd have to see what stats are used where, and in those cases, maximize the ones that are used the most.

Hope that helps.

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:44 am Post subject:

I agree with what you are saying Red. What I have to figure out is how the armor value comes into play for Paladin tanks. 2% of armor does seem like a lot.

The +21 Def meta would put me just over the 560 Def (hard cap). My shield block would go up a bit too.

I think I'm destined to be a mitigation tank. I'm more of a soaker than an avoider. However, using the avoidance macro, with Holy shield, I'm at 99%, close to the mystical 102.4% to be uncrushable (but it appears that you can only be "crushed" by mobs 4 levels higher than you).

If I read right, the golden armor value is 25500.

The more I read, the more confusing things get as there are so many different opinions out there.

Officer Level 80 Paladin

If you took calculus; which I'm sure most of the people reading this forum has, then you know both the values you are talking about are basically discussing limits.

25500 for your armor, if that is what the golden rule is, just means that stacking additional armor on top of that would just provide deminishing returns. Same is true with any other stat for tanking. You will always approach those limits, and each point will bring you closer, but the fractions of a point per gear after reaching tipping points just aren't worth it.

Honestly, the thing to look at is this:

1. Can you hold threat
2. If you can, can you take a hit
3. Can you live until your healer heals you
4. Can you take and additional hit
5. Do you know how to manage different pulls/situation
6. Do you know what the bosses do and how to react to it

What I'm saying is there's more to tanking than just numbers and stats. Yes they are important, but if you don't know the fights or how to react in those situations, then gear and stats are useless. Even a tank with a low health pool can tank a fight as long as they know how to react. They aren't the best tanks for many situations, but knowing when to blow cooldowns, what cooldowns to blow, and how to respond to what's being done to you is often times far more important.

There's no streamlined way to tank. Keep that in mind. Napkin math and theorycrafting will only get you so far. If you want to be a better tank, practice, practice, and study when you're not practicing. Other than that, hit the stats you have to and feel the rest out from there.

Posted: Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:44 am Post subject:

I did take Calculus in High School, but our teacher was easy. Most days, we could get her off on a tangent if we watched ER from that week. She'd go on and on. Or we would play Blackjack on our TI-82's.

Onto the post:

1. Can you hold threat- Most of the time yes (though Mages and Redmages can give me a run)
2. If you can, can you take a hit (I feel like I can, but sometimes I seem to get crushed in succession where others stay alive)
3. Can you live until your healer heals you- Most of the time yes
4. Can you take and additional hit - Not always
5. Do you know how to manage different pulls/situation -This area needs work
6. Do you know what the bosses do and how to react to it -I know most of it

I'm getting the practice, just trying to see what I can do gearwise to make myself the most viable tank that I can. I want to do my best to help the guild, so anything that can give me an advantage, I'm happy to stack extra blah or extra blah blah.

I think I can hold my own for the most part, but extra dodge/str/stam could be a big help in the long run.

edit: The armory is back up, FYI:

# Armor: 24997
# Defense: 542
# Dodge: 22.66%
# Parry: 19.2%
# Block: 18.43%

Guild Master Level 80 Warrior

how much hp do you have?

Member Level 80 Warlock

"Meh" on theorycrafting. Just follow this sequence and you'll be fine.

Ho! Ha-ha! Guard! Turn! Parry! Dodge! Spin! HA! THRUST!!!

Member Level 80 Paladin

Posted: Wed Oct 21, 2009 6:17 am Post subject:

Member Level 80 Mage

I believe the term for Prot Paladins is "John Fucking Madden". I'm not sure why.

102.4% was uncrushable, not an issue now. However, some people are going for 102.4 using block for unhittable, which just means no normal hits. It's a gimmick and a pain, don't worry about it.

Armor is awesome. There is no true diminishing returns on armor, until you hit the cap of 75%. The key term tanks use to describe mitigation is Effective Health.

Your effective health is calculated thusly:

Total Health / (1-Armor Reduction) = Effective Health

Armor reduction is the decimal representing the percent mitigation. So if you had 75% mitigation, your EH would be 4 times your health - which is good.

That's how you determine what's good. As for threat, you big money items are strenght and block value, until about 3000 block value, in which hit is better.